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Ireland v Israel

category international | rights, freedoms and repression | news report author Tuesday June 14, 2005 17:33author by Paul MacGiolla Bán - none Report this post to the editors

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I was somewhat distracted while watching both of the Republic of Ireland soccer squad's games against Israel in their quest for qualification for the 2006 World Cup finals in Germany. Normally, watching Ireland's competitive games is an enjoyable, exciting, and somewhat tense experience, especially when they don't quite seem to be playing as well as I feel they should be. But for both of the games against Israel I found it quite difficult to keep my mind focussed on the football. In watching this soccer game between two nations, I wasn't quite able to put it out of my mind that one of the nations is responsible for the systematic oppression of a population whose land they have occupied.

Most people are aware that there is some kind of conflict between Israel and Palestine. But though the situation is referred to as a conflict, giving the impression of two equal sides battling it out, the word 'conflict' does not accurately reflect the situation, which is incredibly unbalanced in favour of the Israelis.

Israel is sometimes referred to as the only democracy in the middle east. And yet, Israel is in violation of over 60 United Nations resolutions - more than any other nation. The Palestinians, in contrast, are targeted by zero UN resolutions. The two main Palestinian homelands, Gaza and the West Bank, are under Israeli control. Palestinians are the victim of routine human rights abuses at the hands of the Israeli state. These occupied territories function like a prison the size of a small country. As the so-called peace talks continue, Israel is constructing a literal wall around the Gaza Strip. This wall will be 8m high, and the International Court of Justice has stated that the wall “violates certain international and humanitarian laws”. Palestinians in Israel live under an apartheid system, similar to that in operation in South Africa in the 1980s.

On Saturday June 4th, 2005, there was a demonstration in Dublin in solidarity with the Palestinian people, and in protest at their treatment by the Israeli state. It was organised by the Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign (IPSC). The demonstrators gathered at the Central Bank on Dame St. before marching past the Dáil and on to the Israeli embassy. According to various reports, between 500 to 2,000 people attended, including several members of Ireland's Palestinian community. The demonstration took place on the same day as Ireland's home fixture against Israel.

This is the reason I found it so difficult to concentrate on the football while watching Ireland's two drawn matches against Israel this year. The situation in Israel is public knowledge and not in dispute. I will return to the plight of the Palestinian people later, but first I want to address the issue of sport and politics.

When confronted with this situation the average football fan will say, quite reasonably, that sport should be kept separate from politics. They do not want to hear about these issues, and do not want their enjoyment of the game ruined. They do not see what relevance the Palestinian situation has to a soccer match. And the mass media are reluctant to make the link between sport and politics, for fear of seeming like spoilsports. However, unpleasant as it may be, the reality is that sport and politics are already mixed.

When the Israeli national team plays soccer, it is a chance for the Israeli state to show a positive face to the world. This public aspect of Israel does not reflect their appalling human rights record. Their treatment of the Palestinian people is hidden from view. They can appear in international competition side by side with other nations without any reference being made to their apartheid policies. But these policies are a central part of the Israeli state's identity. You should not be able to think of the state of Israel without thinking of the Israeli treatment of the Palestinian people.

There is also a Palestinian soccer team. However, life for them is not as easy as it is for the Israeli national team. While Israeli sportspeople travel freely abroad for matches and tournaments, the Palestinian team is frequently stopped at checkpoints. In September 2004, five players were prevented from leaving the occupied territories for their World Cup qualifier against Uzbekistan. The Palestinian team's 'home' fixtures are actually played abroad, at Doha in Qatar. Their training ground is in Ismailia in Egypt, over 100 miles from Gaza players' homes. This is a result of the political situation. As a direct result of politics, the Palestinian football team faces all these obstacles. This illustrates how sport and politics cannot be thought of separately.

And so it is that human rights groups, including Jewish and Israeli campaigns, have called for a boycott of Israeli goods. This is why the IPSC called for a boycott of Ireland's World Cup matches against Israel. Perhaps the call for a boycott was not the best way to proceed, as such a call was never going to be successful. But as the citizens of a state where we are lucky enough to have the freedom to enjoy our basic rights, we have a responsibility to show solidarity in some way with those who do not have this freedom. And so, Israel's recent World Cup qualifying matches against Ireland were a perfect opportunity to draw attention to this characteristic of the Israeli state. And yet, the coverage of the match did not include any reference to the plight of the Palestinian people. Not one comment was made about the sectarian policies of the Israeli state. The FAI refused to call for a minute's silence in respect for the victims on both sides of the conflict. As writer Dr. Joe Cleary stated in a speech at the beginning of the march, our politicians, trade union leaders, religious figureheads, and media elites say that they know about the situation in Palestine. They agree that the situation is horrific. They say that their sympathies are with the Palestinian people. And yet, on an occasion such as this soccer match against Israel, a perfect opportunity to highlight the injustices consistently suffered by Palestinians for decades, they are silent.

Under international law, an occupying force must protect all civilians in the area under its control. This is ignored by Israel. The 65 UN resolutions targeting Israel relate to Israel's treatment of the Palestinian people. As mentioned above, there are two areas of Israel where there are large concentrations of Palestinians: the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip. These areas were under Palestinian control until Israel took over in a military invasion in 1967. Although they were designated to become a Palestinian homeland in the Oslo peace accord of 1993, they remain under Israeli control. These areas are referred to as the occupied territories. It is in these occupied territories that the Palestinian people live under Israeli jurisdiction.

The West Bank and the Gaza Strip are not like the rest of Israel. An Irish person travelling to any other part of Israel would find a society quite similar to his own. However, the occupied territories are a different proposition. Here, the Palestinian population lives in extreme poverty. There are severe water shortages. There are high rates of malnutrition, illiteracy, and infant mortality. But these conditions of deprivation do not result from the Israeli state's inaction or unwillingness to improve the quality of lives of the Palestinian people. These conditions are the result of conscious action and planning by the Israeli state. In the occupied territories, there are forced evictions of Palestinian families. Palestinian businesses, houses, shops, and crops are bulldozed and destroyed. The Palestinian population's movement is regulated by Israeli checkpoints. These checkpoints prevent children from travelling to school, workers from travelling to their place of work, and the sick, injured and pregnant from travelling to hospital. The people are prevented from governing themselves effectively. Although in some areas Israel has allowed Palestinians to take on the administration of functions relating to health care, education, and infrastructural projects, Israel retains overall control.

But as if this were not bad enough, the most serious difficulty faced by the Palestinian people is the constant Israeli military presence in their communities. Israeli tanks and helicopter gunships periodically enter Palestinian communities. The Israeli military impose frequent curfews on the population. They shoot at the Palestinian volunteer ambulance service. Young men are arbitrarily arrested and placed in 'administrative detention' without trial.

In the alleged attempts to correct this situation, there is discussion of the viability of a one state solution or a two state solution. Much is made of Palestinian suicide bombings, and it is said that this is preventing the negotiation of a political settlement. The loss of life and injuries as a result of suicide bombings is tragic. It should be remembered that this loss of life due to suicide bombings is on a much smaller scale than the death count on the Palestinian side. Since the beginning of the current intifada (Arabic for 'shaking off') at the end of September 2000, 1,049 Israelis have been killed, but 3,617 Palestinians have been killed. 118 Israeli children have been killed, but 680 Palestinian children have been killed. All of these deaths are tragic, but far more Palestinians than Israelis are dying. And currently, 8,043 Palestinians are being held in prison by Israel, according to official figures. Most are held in appalling conditions. No Israelis are held captive by the Palestinian side of the 'conflict'. 4,170 Palestinian homes have been demolished during the current intifada, but no Israeli home has been demolished by Palestinians. While suicide bombings are horrific, in the normal course of events, the Israeli population are free to pursue a normal, free existence. For the Palestinian population there can be no normality. This is a nation where one class of people have their basic rights directly violated by the state. These human rights violations include persistent violations of rights enshrined in the Universal Declaration of Civil and Political Rights, including the right to life, the right to freedom of movement, and the right to self-determination.

There are many Israelis who are not racist. The racist attitude towards Palestinians which is prevalent in Israel does not come as a result of being Jewish. There is no link between this racism and the Jewish faith, the Jewish race or the Jewish cultural identity. This is shown by the fact that much of the horrific detail of the Israeli state's treatment of the Palestinian people is reported by Jewish journalists in the Israeli press. To be filled with horror at the Israeli state's subjugation of the Palestinian people does not mean to have any bad feeling towards Jews in general. There is a difference between being Jewish and believing in the philosophy of Zionism. It is true that this is a specifically Jewish philosophy, but all Jews do not subscribe to this philosophy, and indeed, many non-Jews are supportive of Zionist philosophy. Therefore, our condemnation of the Israeli brutalisation of Palestine should be directed at the Israeli state, rather than directed at Jews in general. Otherwise we are perpetrators of the same deluded prejudice that is now focussed on the Palestinians.

Raymond Deane, the chair of the IPSC, has called for "a massive 'tell the truth' campaign targeted at our mainstream media". As citizens of a free society we have a responsibility to show solidarity with those who do not have this luxury. This begins with informing ourselves. We must become aware of the reality of the situation.


Sources:
www.ipsc.ie (Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign)
www.ifamericansknew.org
www.adl.org (Anti Defamation League)

author by Sindo readerpublication date Tue Jun 14, 2005 19:45author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Great men like myself and Noel know that it is foolish to feel sorry for Palestinians, they'd never feel sorry for you. Instead, you should block your eyes and ears to the propaganda you see on most major news networks and instead support Israel in it's great cause as a democracy.

If you ignore this message you are a Nazi Jew hater.

author by TheTrollpublication date Tue Jun 14, 2005 22:15author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"Great cause as a democracy"??? Do all "great men" think that murderous thieving ZIonists crusader's choice of governence gives them a birthright of murderous theft of palestinian lands???

People are not disgusted by Nazis because they lived within a dictatorship. It is because they were murderous thieves of thier neighbor's homelands that gets them branded as foul and offensive. And hating ZIonists because ZIonists are 4 generations of murderous thieves (((who have never stopped stealing Palestinian lands and have never hesitated to MURDER our Palestinian neighbors who resist, or are just in the wrong place, as defined by the ZIonist crusaders ))) is no more anti-semetic than hating Nazis makes you anti-German.

And since I didn't ignore the message, but trashed your offensive scapegoating rant, does that mean I am not a......

author by Oh, Trollpublication date Tue Jun 14, 2005 22:23author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Oh, Troll.

author by Robpublication date Tue Jun 14, 2005 22:28author address author phone Report this post to the editors

There are four more people to be added to the list of palestinian dead. The four people exceuted by the P.A. over the weekend.

Will there be a march about this?

author by Sindo readerpublication date Tue Jun 14, 2005 22:43author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Isreal is great, marvelous, sexy, amazing, the pearl of the middle east.And what do you all want to do?Ruin it.There is only one solution for all of you all foolish fools all.Thats right.READ THE SUNDAY INDEPENDENT.

Thee and only there will you get good,great,and brilliant incisive debate.Noel would agree with me.


IT IS TIME TO DEFEND THE WEST.HENCE,IT IS NECESSARY WE DEFEND ISREAL, WITH OUR SPLEEEN,OUR IDEAL,AND OUR VIGOUR!BY THE SWEAT OF OUR BROW, THE TORMENT OF OUR THOUGHTS ANDS THE WILL OF OUR SUSTENANCE AND VIGOUR.

Remember, if it was not for Isreal, there is a good chance communism would have won, as well as a resurgence of the dark totalitarian forces of fascism, the sort of sinister forces appropriated by indymedia.

ALREADY I HEAR THE RIGHTEOUS PEOPLE PROCLAIM 'HEAR,HEAR...'

author by Sindo readerpublication date Tue Jun 14, 2005 22:50author address author phone Report this post to the editors

WELL DONE.AN EXCELLENT, FORTHRIGHT AND HONEST APPRAISAL.Already the Arab barbarian sits at our doorstep.Baby Isreal cradles democracy, human right and intellectual spleen, while the hoodeyed barbarian of the evil that collapssed the twin towers executes it's own sons.

Isreal must do what it must do.Unfortunatly, this means death and death on a collateral scale.But those are honourable deaths, and these are deaths from a primitive populace that can reproduce at will.

The barbaric Palestinians meanwhile, blindlyt execute it's young.No sane man, birthed in the cradle of Western thought, Jew, Greek, Roman, British, Gallic, Germanic, Nordic, even Slavic, and,of layte, Irish, should allow self rule for a dangerous, hate filled, tribe so close to our door that is Europa.Isreal is the trenches of the Westr, so hurrah, hurrqah, yes, hurrah!

Noel, you seem a splendid chap.Is it possible, if you read this, that I contact you?Rob, might I be privvy to such that is the same?

author by Workers Unitepublication date Tue Jun 14, 2005 23:01author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Why is it that the exposing of what Zionism truly means. ie... racist, genocidal philosophy brings about childish responses such as oh... oh... look what they did, and does not recognize the genocide that is perpetuated by zionism.

Remember Zionism does not = Jewish people. Zionism is a political philosophy, based on racist ideology. Just like Nazism does not = German people. Nazism is a political philosophy that is also based on racist ideology.

For more info go to the following websites.

Related Link: http://www.takingaim.info/
author by Workers Unitepublication date Tue Jun 14, 2005 23:04author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Here is the other website. Just ignore the advertisements they are put there by angelfire, so that the website can be free to users.

Related Link: http://www.angelfire.com/indie/workersunite726
author by Workers Unitepublication date Tue Jun 14, 2005 23:12author address author phone Report this post to the editors

the comments of this Sindo person speak for themselves. Zionism= racist philosophy. I believe the Nazis spread similiar propaganda about the Jewish people, so they could take them to the gas chambers because it was okay since they were sub-human.

Related Link: http://www.takingaim.info/
author by TheTrollpublication date Tue Jun 14, 2005 23:59author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Sindo is obviously being sacrastic. He is obviously anti-Zionists spouting the crap Zionists usualy spout to show how self serving ZIonists ARE. The Zionists are great (like us and serving our intrusive western intrests), so they deserve a birthright of murderous theft of Palestinian lands AND Palestinians are wrong to liberate thier homeland from murderous thieves, even murderous thieves who also happen to be Jews. Who could fall for such obvious sarcasm??? I did. But it is so obtuse you can't be fooled for long.

author by false flag Sindopublication date Wed Jun 15, 2005 00:00author address author phone Report this post to the editors

It was Zionists who invented Intel. If you don't beleive that intel inside gives ZIonists a right to be murderous thieves, then you are a fool.

author by avi H.publication date Wed Jun 15, 2005 01:10author address author phone Report this post to the editors

why the Palestinian Arabs live in dire poverty when their former 'revolutionary' leader left a personal fortune of not less than USD 4.3 billion in the bank; why Palestinian political leaders sent their own kids to schools and universities in the West while sending other people's kids to blow themselves to bits in the Intifada; why the Saudis who have more money than G-d, don't solve the Palestinian financial problems overnight if they care about their fellow Arabs so much; why the Arabs who launched war after war of annihilation against the Jews from the territory on which the Palestinians now live; why the Palestinians, who love killing Jews and who militarised their entire population (apart from the rich, that is), are now in permanent lockdown.

By the way, find out some accurate information about Jewish history and culture before you spout off about it, as you people's statements only demonstrate to all and sundry your appalling ignorance of your subject matter.

Gimme a break.

author by robpublication date Wed Jun 15, 2005 01:41author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"Fatah gunmen admitted over the weekend that nine Palestinians who were murdered in Bethlehem on suspicion of collaboration with Israel were actually innocent victims of lawlessness.

The suspected "collaborators" were executed by members of
Fatah's armed wing, Aksa Martyrs Brigades, shortly before the IDF raided Bethlehem in 2002 as part of Operation Defensive Shield."

to read more
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1118457903886&p=1101615860782

author by hs - sp (per cap)publication date Wed Jun 15, 2005 01:46author address author phone Report this post to the editors

probably avi it's because the palestinians run a class system of there own, just like there was opportunists in the jewish ghettoes of the 30s and 40s theres probably plenty in palestine. Remember that there was even jewish police, policing jews in the nazi ghettos. And every colinised and occupied peoples have always had there own ruling class from within. what they used to call "gombeen men" in Ireland.

But the main point is, one country is occupying another country and it isn't really possible to spin out of that one. And whether the palestinians run a vicious class system (not unlike most of the world) doesn't make the occupation all right.
After all israel run's a class system of it's own.

check out: http://www.maavak.org.il/maavak/index.php

most of the site is in hebrew but some english translations are available.

https://israel.indymedia.org/
some articles are in english

author by Ali ibn Sharmootahpublication date Wed Jun 15, 2005 06:38author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"But the main point is, one country is occupying another country and it isn't really possible to spin out of that one"

The Israelis aren't occupying another country. They are occupying territory that had been previously occupied by Jordan and Egypt. There has never been a country called "palestine", and the closest thing there has ever been to such a country is Jordan. 80% palestinian, currently OCCUPIED by the Hashemites.

author by Workers Unitepublication date Wed Jun 15, 2005 07:18author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Palestine has been the name of that area since the Roman era. Palestinians are real people. They do exist. And they have lived on their land for centuries, until the Zionists decided to settle there in the late 1800s and early 1900s. But even with the settlements, there was only a very small Jewish population there.

But Israel did not come into existance until 1948. And there was no such thing as an Israeli until that time.

Israel was set up as a bullwark for imperialism in the middle east by the U.N. which is dominated by the U.S.along with other junior imperialists, like Britian,and France.

Many nations, such as Italy, and Germany, did not come into existance until the modern era. But that does not mean that the natives of that land did not exist, until then.

This Zionist argument of Palestinian non-existance is based on racist ideology, and is meant to wipe out all remanants of a Palestinian society.

For more info about Zionism go to the following website. This website also has links to other sites, such as the writings of James Connolly.

Related Link: http://www.takingaim.info/
author by Workers Unitepublication date Wed Jun 15, 2005 07:22author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Here is another website.

Related Link: http://www.angelfire.com/indie/workersunite726
author by Workers Unitepublication date Wed Jun 15, 2005 07:38author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Palestinians are in poverty because they are an oppressed and occupied nation. Zionists believe that the victims are guilty for their own victimization by another people.

I believe the Nazis used similiar arguments for the genocide against the Jewish people. Blame the victim, that always works well.

Palestinian society was at one time thriving, with tradesmen, and farmers, and industries, and educational institutions. Just like Lebanon was before it was destroyed by the Israelis. Beruit was considered to be the Paris of the middle east, until it was leveled by the Israelis. For more info about this go to the following website.

Related Link: http://www.takingaim.info/
author by toneorepublication date Wed Jun 15, 2005 08:58author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"Beruit was considered to be the Paris of the middle east, until it was leveled by the Israelis."

That is absolute CRAP. There was a civil war going on in Lebanon for YEARS before the Israelis invaded. Didn't you watch television in the 70's?

author by Noelpublication date Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:06author address author phone Report this post to the editors

'Palestinians are real people. They do exist. And they have lived on their land for centuries'

Pre '48 the Jews in the area were called Palestinians. The brave few of the RAF numbered such Palestinians amongst it's heroes. They were the Palestinians who opposed Hitler, compared with other Palestinians who supported him.

author by avi H.publication date Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:10author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"But Israel did not come into existance until 1948. And there was no such thing as an Israeli until that time. "

Nice one, Professor. Your knowledge is truly comprehensive; and by the way, learn to spell...

author by democraticpublication date Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:46author address author phone Report this post to the editors

He is a report about the latest Israeli venture against their own citizens.

Long live Israeli democracy,

I mean there is no rascism, no apartheid , its all hunky dory


Mob attacks 5 Arabs

About 50 Jewish youngsters surround vehicle, hurl stones at five Arab-Israelis
By Yisrael Moscowitz

AFULA – Dozens of Jewish youngsters attacked five Arab-Israelis in the northern town of Afula for no apparent reason, hurling stones at their vehicle and injuring them.
Police forces later detained 13 suspects in connection with the case. A police official characterized the incident as a “severe case of thuggery.”
The five Arab-Israeli youngsters, who reside in a village near Afula, were attacked on the way back home after spending the evening in the town
Four Jewish youngsters stood in the way of their vehicle, refused to move, and started hurling stones at it, said 22-year-old Hussam Jahim.
“It was scary. All the car’s windows were shattered,” he said, and added the passengers were hurt by the broken glass.

‘They had a crazed look in their eyes’

However, this was apparently only the beginning of the nightmare.

“After a few minutes, about 50 more youngsters arrived in the area and surrounded our car. They had a crazed look in their eyes,” said Muid Zuabi, 19, another passenger in the vehicle. “They kicked the car, stoned us, and shouted ‘Arabs bastards’ at us. I was sure they were going to murder us. I didn’t believe we’ll come out of it alive.”

“We were in a trap,” he said, “on the one hand a barrage of stones (hurled) at the car, but on the other hand we were scared to get out because we knew they would finish us off.”

Some of those detained were drunk

Following long minutes of horror, where the car driver froze in fear, he regained his senses, reversed away from the scene, and escaped to the nearest police station.

While the frightened youngsters related their story, an Afula police force left for the scene of the attack and detained 13 youngsters involved in the incident. Some of those arrested were intoxicated and denied any connection to the assault.

Two of the attack victims, who sustained light wounds, were taken to hospital for treatment.

http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/ArticleLayout/CdaArticlePrintPreview/1,2506,L-3098716,00.html

Its an israeli newspaper and its not pro palestinian

author by robpublication date Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:02author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"Beruit was considered to be the Paris of the middle east, until it was leveled by the Israelis"

Actually Beruit was destroyed by a bloody civil war, and was wrecked long before the Israelis went near the place.

author by Noelpublication date Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:06author address author phone Report this post to the editors

'While the frightened youngsters related their story, an Afula police force left for the scene of the attack and detained 13 youngsters involved in the incident. Some of those arrested were intoxicated and denied any connection to the assault.'

A frightening incident perpetrated by drunken kids, who were subsequently detained by police.
And where exactly is the acute lack of democracy in this story?

author by Democraticpublication date Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:20author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Ah Noel,

Again you only surface to defend israel,

It shows that in this wonderful example of democratic values, that Arab Israelis are rascially targetted and abused. Its not a new occurance, muslim or christian or non believer, if you are arab you are discriminated against.

Last year a palestinian music group visited ireland, 5 in total, all israeli citizens, 3 christian 2 muslim and they were held at Tel Aviv airport for 3 days beforehand and the same going back. They hold Israeli passports, they come from the state of Israel.

Thats the point Noel, Zionism breeds rascism, a hatred of Non jewish people, Israel is not a democratic state, it is an apartheid state, a delegation of South African poiticans visited the region in 2003 and stated that compared to what they saw apartheid in south africa was a piece of cake. That is a fact.

John Gormley from the Green Party recently said the same thing, Israel is an apartheid state, until you have seen it stop talking about something you know nothing about. How many times have you stated you have never been there, yet how do you know so much?

Go and see how the occupation of Palestine is ruining both sides, it dehumanises Israelis, recently Mr. "TV" the founder and anchor of the Israeli state TV , Haim Yavin , described the occupation as brutal

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4598965.stm


Again Noel, its time to stand up and be counted, visit the country, talk to ordinary people on both sides, talk to young Israeli soldiers scared out of their wits , talk to ordinary Israelis in Jerusalem where they are too firghtened to speak to strangers, talk to Palestinians who have been abused by the military, talk to people in refugee camps in their own land.

Israel is no democracy that is the point and no amount of sarcastic replies will ever change that.

author by Democraticpublication date Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:24author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Just to offset the accusations of being an anti-semite jew hater, check out the link below listing Jewish organisations against the occupation of palestine

http://www.eccmei.net/j/orgs.html

author by Robpublication date Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:28author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"talk to ordinary Israelis in Jerusalem where they are too firghtened to speak to strangers"


Yeah Noel! And stop slagging North Korea and Zimbabwe too, you have not been there either.

author by Democraticpublication date Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:40author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Rob, its not about being there or not solely,

how can on the one hand people criticise NKorea/Zimbabwe etc etc and then singularly refuse to hear any criticism of Israel?

Noel seems to be a champion of Israel, ready to leap to its defence and yet he refuses to accept the testimony of so many people that have seen the reality on the ground. Testimony from ordinary activists to world famous individuals and organisations.

Yet, again criticism against aforementioned NKorea/Zimbabwe ete is ok because the UN, US etc etc say its ok to criticise.

I havent been to NK or Zim but I have been to Palestine and Israel. I have seen young kids with guns, frightened and scared to talk to you, (Young Israeli Soldiers) , I have spoken to "the Israel Experience" kids, from all over the world and they happily take pictures in front of landmarks while in uniform and holding M16's , I mean is it right that a 17 year old from Mexico travells to Israel and trains as a soldiers to serve in the occupied territories? I have been held at checkpoints and felt a terrible fear as heavily armed soldeirs entered the bus and took younf palestinian lads out of the bus, i have seenan old woman harrassed by an israeli soldiers so much so that his own coleagues told him to stop. Thats the reality of being there.

Again I say, its not about being there or not soley, its about how and why we accept testimony in some cases and blindly refuse to accept it in other cases. We have a moral obligation at least to debate the issue and not resort to childish name calling and labelling people as anti semitic jew haters.

Criticism of Israel is not anti semitic

author by robpublication date Wed Jun 15, 2005 13:00author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Criticism of Israel is one thing, of course you should be able to criticise any country you like. But hatred is another thing entirely, the majority of comments on this site come from a deep hatred of Israel, and as such a blindness to the reality of the situation. Words like Nazi, fascism, apartheid , genocide, child killers have been used in this context.

Without going into a semantic argument about what is a 'Semite' It strikes me that a hatred of Israel to the point where you ignore regimes in the area that are truly despotic and repressive, is anti Jewish and therefore anti Semitic.

The typical rebuttal of this is "but Israel is a secular country". This is equivalent to saying "I'm not a racist but...."

Very few racists consider themselves to be racist and the same goes for anti semitism.

Take a look, try and find a similar thread on this site concerning abuse in Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iran. Where is a discussion about the massacre at hama? Where is the thread about the expulsion of nearly One million Jews from arab regimes in the late 40's and 50's? It is just not there.

I

author by schlomopublication date Wed Jun 15, 2005 13:09author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Not to mention the expulsion of the Jews from England in 1290 and from Spain in 1492 ....

author by Democraticpublication date Wed Jun 15, 2005 13:12author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I am in complete agreement with you on most points, there is singulalry a lack of debate oabout other repressive regimes in the Middle East, I agree that the issue of Israel is often divided between rabid anti israeli and pro israeli viewpoints.

However the use of words such as apartheid etc are not wrong because the reality is there. And one cannot hide from the fact that Israel is a secular democracy and not a Jewish state. This is not saying that I am not a racist but, the fallacy of anti semitism being equated to criticism of Israel is pumped up and promoted by Israel and elemetns of jewish media. like the example posted on another thread about the demo in Dublin written by the Jewish tel;egraph, that was total nonsense and a complete lie and linked the protest to anti-semitism.

Criticism of other repressive states in the ME must included Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Kuwait and the Gulf State but this does not happen because the are either American allies or satellite states.

However, regardless of all of these facts a peaceful solution must be found between Palestine and Israel, the crimes of the past on both sides need to be dealt with. There is serious human rights abuses in Palestine today, there is serious human rights abuses in Israel today, Palestinians abuse human rights, Israel abuse human rights and it needs to stop.

Too many people jump on this bandwagon to either express hatred of Israel or Muslims or god knows what, reasoned debate is what is needed Rob, a willingness to at least listen to both sides

author by schlomopublication date Wed Jun 15, 2005 13:13author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The expulsions from France in 1182 and 1394 .....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_France#The_Great_Exile_of_1306.

author by Come onpublication date Wed Jun 15, 2005 13:15author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Come on get real,

what about the christian crusades against the muslims in the middle ages, what about the spanish campaign against the moorish muslims to reconquer christain land etc etc

author by Paul MacGiolla Bánpublication date Wed Jun 15, 2005 13:36author address author phone Report this post to the editors

apartheid:
1. An official policy of racial segregation formerly practiced in the Republic of South Africa, involving political, legal, and economic discrimination against nonwhites.
2. A policy or practice of separating or segregating groups.
3. The condition of being separated from others; segregation.

Rob says: “Criticism of Israel is one thing, of course you should be able to criticise any country you like. But hatred is another thing entirely… Words like Nazi, fascism, apartheid , genocide, child killers have been used in this context”.

Apartheid is not a word of hatred, it is a word of definition. It is accurate in the case of Israel. The Israeli security barrier is a physical means of implementing the second and third definitions of apartheid above (from dictionary.com).

author by Workers Unitepublication date Wed Jun 15, 2005 15:40author address author phone Report this post to the editors

TThe aparthied wall is also being used to separate the Palestinian people from each other and from their lands, so as to make it imposible to live, and ever become a cohesive state. The israeli state has stolen so much land that it is now impossible for a Palestinian state, to ever exist under such circumstances.

The very founding of Israel was based on racist policies of ethnic cleansing, and those who are non-jews are treated as second -class citizens.

The borders have to be either drawn as the U.N. initially did in 1948, and those Jews who wish to live peacfully in Palestine, may do so, but many of the settlements will need to be either given back to the Palestinians.

Or that area has to see the formation of a Secular Democratic Palestine, where all people can live together as equals, and all people have a power sharing in the economic, and political Areas of government, and not just those who are Jewish, by some quais-racial religious definition.

The state of Israel has too many built-in sectarian laws and soci-econmic structures, that promote racial, and ethinc division, that is why Israel as a state will never be able to accoplish equality. Just the name Israel denotes a religious philosophy, whereas Palestine does not.

Related Link: http://www.takingaim.info/
author by democraticpublication date Wed Jun 15, 2005 17:03author address author phone Report this post to the editors

http://antiwar.com/hacohen/?articleid=6303

read it its a very interesting read

author by Islam Uber Allespublication date Wed Jun 15, 2005 18:08author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"what about the christian crusades against the muslims in the middle ages,"

The Moslems invaded Christian territory and threatened further expansion.

author by get realpublication date Wed Jun 15, 2005 18:13author address author phone Report this post to the editors

if thats true then you actually are dismissing zionism, if muslims invaded christian land then the israelis have no right to palestine, its the christians?

author by Ali ibn Sharmootahpublication date Wed Jun 15, 2005 18:13author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"apartheid:
1. An official policy of racial segregation"

Those dumb Israelis. They didn't read the Nazi "progressive" playbook. 20 % of Israel's population is arab and they have voting rights. O% of any Arab nation is Jewish and the ARABS don't have voting rights in their own countries. It is illegal to sell property to a Jew in Jordan and "palestine" the death penalty is the punishment. Arabs have NO VOTE in any of their Monarchies, Teheocraies or dixtatorships!
There are good reasons that Arabs would choose to live in "apartheid" Israel. They're better off, and enjoy higher standards of living and more freedoms then their arqab brothers

author by Confusedpublication date Wed Jun 15, 2005 18:27author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Ali ibn sharmootah

you are right but I am confused, all the countries you mention are bosom buddies of the US, egypt, saudi arabia, jordan etc etc

Israel is a bosom buddy of the us,

therefore are we to compare israel with these evil dictatorships,

lie down with dogs u get up with fleas

israel is an apartheid rascist state supported by the US

most other countries in the me are tin pot dictatorships being supported by the US

author by Workers Unitepublication date Wed Jun 15, 2005 18:32author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"There are good reasons that Arabs would choose to live in "apartheid" Israel. They're better off, and enjoy higher standards of living and more freedoms then their arab brothers"


This quote exposes the racist ideology of zionism.

The white minority in south Africa said the same about the apartheid regime they had there.

The British said the same thing about the Irish when they were occupying Ireland.

"These peolpe are incapable of governing themselves, because they are Barbaric, animalistic, etc... etc... They ought to be glad that we are here to civilize them".

Very racist indeed.

Related Link: http://www.takingaim.info/
author by eastern eyepublication date Wed Jun 15, 2005 23:34author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"There are many Israelis who are not racist. The racist attitude towards Palestinians which is prevalent in Israel does not come as a result of being Jewish. There is no link between this racism and the Jewish faith, the Jewish race or the Jewish cultural identity..."

Infact, there are many Zionist Israelis who are not racist. Zionism as an idea has nothing to do with racism. Zionist is someone who believes in an independent state for the Jews in the place called Judea / Palestine / Israel / the original homeland of the Jewish people. Most of the People in Israel declares themselves Zionists. as many Jews over the world do. As do some non-Jews.
Most of the parties that run for the Israeli Parlament are Zionist, and they vary from left to right.
It doesn't contradicts human rights. or the rights of the Palestinians.
Some of the Seruvniks Activists declares that refuse to serve at the Territories is a very Zionist deed.

Being Anti-Zionist means you oppose the right of existance of the State of Israel. Means you wish to State of Israel to vanish.
Saying "I don't hate Jews, I dislike Zionists. Zionists are Nazi Murderers etc." means, "I don't hate Jews, I just oppose the Jews having a state of their own". Which is a thing none of you would think to say about any other country, no matter how horrible and awful its actions will be.
More than one comments writer in this site wrote he wishes that. It is far different than critisize Israel for its doing.
Don't be surprised that you are accused with Anti-Semetism or with Israel-hate if you don't know the limits and the difference between those two.

author by Workers Unitepublication date Thu Jun 16, 2005 03:04author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Zionism is a political ideology, and has nothing to do with being Jewish. I have met a number of Jewish people who oppose the philosophy of Zionism, and have called zionists racists and hateful.

An older Jewish women I know said she was in Palestine during the time when the Zionists were ethnically cleansing the Palestinians from their lands, before the creation of the state of Israel.

She said the Zionists were some of the most disgusting racist people she ever met, and wanted nothing to do with robbing other people of their land.

For more info about Zionism go tothe following website.

Related Link: http://www.takingaim.info/
author by TheTrollpublication date Thu Jun 16, 2005 06:44author address author phone Report this post to the editors

An endless sorce of amusment.

Because some of the MURDEROUS THIEVING ZIonist crusaders are NOT racist in thier participation in the MURDEROUS THEFT of palestinian lands, they deserve what??? Palestinian lands??? Shit! I wish I could imagine the thought that went into that one.

Yep, it is only when 1 does not think of what they are saying, that you can be sure that they are saying what they are thinking.

I thought that the debate of wether or NOT a superior
race had a right to destroy thier neighbors for thier own profit was deiced 60 years ago.

Check your head.

author by the magnificent lord rothschildpublication date Thu Jun 16, 2005 08:27author address author phone Report this post to the editors

BECAUSE the Balfour Declaration says so.
Or haven't you read it you ignorant anti-semites ?

***************************

Dear Lord Rothschild,

I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet.

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object ...

I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.

Yours sincerely,

Arthur James Balfour

Related Link: http://www.mideastweb.org/mebalfour.htm
author by eastern eyepublication date Thu Jun 16, 2005 08:57author address author phone Report this post to the editors

putting half of Balfour's declaration and entering 3 points where it doesn't suit you.

here is ALL of Mr. Balfour declaration:


Dear Lord Rothschild,

I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet.

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.

Yours sincerely,

Arthur James Balfour

author by eastern eyepublication date Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:14author address author phone Report this post to the editors

you can relate to the 4 comments above me as "Jew-haters" or "Israel-haters" rather than critics of the deeds of the State of Israel.

author by Democraticpublication date Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:18author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Do you have any criticism of the state of Israel?

Is the current occupation of Palestine wrong?

Is there human rights abuses against Palestinians?

Was there human rights abuses and murder in 1948?

author by Sindo readerpublication date Thu Jun 16, 2005 19:20author address author phone Report this post to the editors

...that, when Isreal finally conquers the Arab barbarian, whilst they may kick oot the wretches that are female, male, and elderly, they will keep some beautiful, pre pubescent young Arab boys. Mmm, handsome chaps, they can be raised either Jewish, Christian, or, he,he, more 'ways' than one. My precious friend Noel will agree, as would that Jonathan King fellow...

author by jeffpublication date Thu Jun 16, 2005 19:27author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Last week Noel said I was a Jew Hater. Such accusations are slanderous. I am still upset by this baseless act of libel. Here isd proof that I'm not a Jew hater.This is a picture of my favorite Jew.

2a.gif

author by avi H.publication date Thu Jun 16, 2005 19:30author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"Zionism is a political ideology, and has nothing to do with being Jewish." Only someone at best totally ignorance of Jewish culture and history and at worst an anti-semite would make such a comment.

You gentlemen really need to obtain accurate information both about Jewish civilisation and about the history of Israel/Palestine before you go shooting off your mouths.

Palestinian land = disputed land. Look accurately at the history beyond the soundbytes and the headlines.

Apartheid wall = another soundbyte that is divorced from reality.

author by jeffpublication date Thu Jun 16, 2005 19:38author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I've made my point.Noel, libel my ass again and I'll wipe it off your face, your Ayrab hating scheister putz...

Well whaddya know? A funny guy, very meshugah
Well whaddya know? A funny guy, very meshugah

Church of Satan founder claimed Jew Gypsey heritage
Church of Satan founder claimed Jew Gypsey heritage

Adam Pafrey- wise guy who owns Feral House publishing co.
Adam Pafrey- wise guy who owns Feral House publishing co.

Little Fyodor
Little Fyodor

author by jeffpublication date Thu Jun 16, 2005 19:42author address author phone Report this post to the editors

He shore was kosha

Sammy baby we loved ya wuk
Sammy baby we loved ya wuk

author by jeffpublication date Thu Jun 16, 2005 19:44author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I a shure do

You sure are, baby
You sure are, baby

author by jeffpublication date Thu Jun 16, 2005 19:47author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The greatest Jewish guy evuh, Einstein gets a second place.

Ron Jeremy-he has, how you say, a way with that ladies that'll put a Goyim to his shame
Ron Jeremy-he has, how you say, a way with that ladies that'll put a Goyim to his shame

author by jeffpublication date Thu Jun 16, 2005 19:50author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I jush don't geddit.

Sheesh!
Sheesh!

author by jeffpublication date Thu Jun 16, 2005 19:52author address author phone Report this post to the editors

You a know a those two in da tank? IDF?Kach? Or just some wisecrackers?You a tell me, baby, I jesh dunno

author by jeffpublication date Thu Jun 16, 2005 19:55author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Forgotta mention. The first guy, this you see is the very famous comedian JACKIE MASON. He got brains and wit that'll make water boil. He is a howl. He make me laugh so hard, I gotta watch my prostrate gland.

author by mr dedaluspublication date Thu Jun 16, 2005 20:14author address author phone Report this post to the editors

.

author by Noelpublication date Thu Jun 16, 2005 22:03author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I can't decide what's more troubling.
Jeff proclaiming his new found Jew Love by posting in some half-arsed psuedo funny yiddish manner. Or the half-arsed pseudo wiseguy threats to do some damage.

I'd better intensify my Krav Maga workouts.
Just in case his Judenhass alter ego finds me.

author by Avi H.publication date Fri Jun 17, 2005 00:39author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Grotesque, sad and insulting are words that come to mind.

author by TheTrollpublication date Fri Jun 17, 2005 02:09author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Look out your window at your neighbor's house. Is there anything that could convince you to give your very best friend a gun to kill your neighbor, route his widow and kids into the streets, and steal thier home??? What if he got a gun on his own, and murdered your neighbor, routed the widow and kids into the streets, and stole your neighbor's house, would you give him more bullets to keep what he murdered to steal??? Would it change a damned thing if the murderous thief was your very best friend and your neighbor was someone you really didn't know at all. OR, would you still be offensive to your neighbors by supporting your best friend's crimes??? If the cops showed up, would you not talk about your best friend's crimes because he is your best friend? Would you bare false witness against your neighbor's to aid your best friend.

Many people think that way. Regardless how you FEEL about your Jewish friends, it would be offensive and vile to aid them in murderous theft of anything. Just as it is offensive and vile to support your ZIonist friend's continuing murderous theft of more and more Palestinian lands and to try to hide Zionist offenses behind rationalization and lies.

If you love Jews, your love for Jews still doesn't give ZIonists a birthright of murderous theft of even 1 rock in Palestinian lands. If you hate Jews for no reason, are you also wrong to hate ZIonists because they are 4 generations of murderous thieves?

Even a broken clock is right 2 times a day. Jew haters are not wrong about saying ZIonists have no birthright of murderous theft. And just because someone hates murderous thieves, even murderous thieves who also happen tio be Jews, that doesn't make one a Jew hater. People who push that idea are just attacking the messanger, rather than explaining how thier love of Jews gives Zionist Jews a birthright of murderous theft.

author by Robpublication date Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:56author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I must say those pictures are the most inept attempt at political satire I have ever witnessed, I mean really. Do you work for RTE by any chance?

author by avi H.publication date Fri Jun 17, 2005 20:12author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Audi alteram partem. Look it up in Google, if your Latin isn't up to date.

author by Mick Kenyonpublication date Tue Jun 13, 2006 01:19author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Hey ho, another badly researched article followed by the usual ill informed comments.

Israel isn't mostly just like Ireland, Ireland is 99.9 % white Israel most certainly is not.

Most of the Jewish Israeli population are either refugees or descendents of refugees who fled Arab anti-semitism. Wonder why that never gets reported eh?

There is no such thing as a Jewish race, Judaism is a religion and Jews are from all colours and continents.

author by reginapublication date Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:53author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Not everything in the article is completely accurate, but the thrust is right.

Basically, if you think Irish Americans, who number in the millions, have a "right" to come back to Ireland and throw most Irish out of your homes for their own reasons, you'd be a fan of Israel. If you think people don't have an inalienable right to land their ancestors left hundreds to thousands of years ago, then you should be for the Palestinians. The theft of Palestine is documented and recent, and should be corrected. Jews driven from Arab lands circa 1948 should receive justice as well.

Genetically, Palestinians aren't Arabs, they were "Arabized" through culture and language, and a small amount of intermarriage during the Arab conquests. They should be repatriated, and the ones who have Israeli citizenship shouldn't be discriminated against anymore.

author by Scepticpublication date Wed Nov 21, 2007 22:35author address author phone Report this post to the editors

“ISRAEL IS SOMETIMES REFERRED TO AS THE ONLY DEMOCRACY IN THE MIDDLE EAST. AND YET, ISRAEL IS IN VIOLATION OF OVER 60 UNITED NATIONS RESOLUTIONS - MORE THAN ANY OTHER NATION.”
There is no doubt about Israel being the only democracy in the Middle East – it is not just sometimes just described as such. The existence of UN resolutions against it is not mutually exclusive with its status as a democracy. Given the number and propensity of Arab and third world states always ganging up on it in Gen Assembly resolutions have been irrelevant since the early 1970s as far as Israel is concerned. Indeed it is the credibility of the UN itself which is called into question by these. The resolutions that matter are the binding Chapter 7 UNSC ones and Israel is not in breach of these. 242 is Chapter 6 and addressed to all parties not Israel and does not have a timetable.
As regards the name Palestine the area was called that by the Roman to put down the Jews. The name was got from the long gone Philistines. The term Palestine was not used again in the area until the British Mandate times in 1918, except by certain Europeans. The Arab residents of the area got called Palestinian by default following the establishment of Israel. Previously there was no Palestinian identity – just residents of the various Ottoman provinces. However that is not to say they should not get their State.

author by mepublication date Thu Nov 22, 2007 13:39author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Israel is not in violation of UN Security Council resolutions? Are you kidding me? How about these (I'm not even including pre-1967 reolutions here):

Resolution 237: " ... 'urges' Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees".
Resolution 242 (November 22, 1967): Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area. Calls on Israel's neighbors to end the state of belligerency and calls upon Israel to reciprocate by withdraw its forces from land claimed by other parties in 1967 war. Interpreted commonly today as calling for the Land for peace principle as a way to resolve Arab-Israeli conflict
Resolution 248: " ... 'condemns' Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan".
Resolution 250: " ... 'calls' on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem".
Resolution 251: " ... 'deeply deplores' Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250".
Resolution 252: " ... 'declares invalid' Israel's acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital".
Resolution 256: " ... 'condemns' Israeli raids on Jordan as 'flagrant violation".
Resolution 259: " ... 'deplores' Israel's refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation".
Resolution 262: " ... 'condemns' Israel for attack on Beirut airport".
Resolution 265: " ... 'condemns' Israel for air attacks for Salt in Jordan".
Resolution 267: " ... 'censures' Israel for administrative acts to change the status of Jerusalem".
Resolution 270: " ... 'condemns' Israel for air attacks on villages in southern Lebanon".
Resolution 271: " ... 'condemns' Israel's failure to obey UN resolutions on Jerusalem".
Resolution 279: " ... 'demands' withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon".
Resolution 280: " ... 'condemns' Israeli's attacks against Lebanon".
Resolution 285: " ... 'demands' immediate Israeli withdrawal form Lebanon".
Resolution 298: " ... 'deplores' Israel's changing of the status of Jerusalem".
Resolution 313: " ... 'demands' that Israel stop attacks against Lebanon".
Resolution 316: " ... 'condemns' Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon".
Resolution 317: " ... 'deplores' Israel's refusal to release Arabs abducted in Lebanon".
Resolution 332: " ... 'condemns' Israel's repeated attacks against Lebanon".
Resolution 337: " ... 'condemns' Israel for violating Lebanon's sovereignty".
Resolution 338 (22 October 1973): cease fire in Yom Kippur War
Resolution 339 (23 October 1973): Confirms Res. 338, dispatch UN observers.
Resolution 347: " ... 'condemns' Israeli attacks on Lebanon".
Resolution 425 (1978): 'calls' on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon". Israel's withdrawal from Lebanon was completed as of 16 June 2000.
Resolution 350 (31 May 1974) established the United Nations Disengagement Observer Force, to monitor the ceasefire between Israel and Syria in the wake of the Yom Kippur War.
Resolution 427: " ... 'calls' on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon.
Resolution 444: " ... 'deplores' Israel's lack of cooperation with UN peacekeeping forces".
Resolution 446 (1979): 'determines' that Israeli settlements are a 'serious obstruction' to peace and calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention".
Resolution 450: " ... 'calls' on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon".
Resolution 452: " ... 'calls' on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories".
Resolution 465: " ... 'deplores' Israel's settlements and asks all member states not to assist Israel's settlements program".
Resolution 467: " ... 'strongly deplores' Israel's military intervention in Lebanon".
Resolution 468: " ... 'calls' on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return".
Resolution 469: " ... 'strongly deplores' Israel's failure to observe the council's order not to deport Palestinians".
Resolution 471: " ... 'expresses deep concern' at Israel's failure to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention".
Resolution 476: " ... 'reiterates' that Israel's claim to Jerusalem are 'null and void'".
Resolution 478 (20 August 1980): 'censures (Israel) in the strongest terms' for its claim to Jerusalem in its 'Basic Law'.
Resolution 484: " ... 'declares it imperative' that Israel re-admit two deported Palestinian mayors".
Resolution 487: " ... 'strongly condemns' Israel for its attack on Iraq's nuclear facility".
Resolution 497 (17 December 1981) decides that Israel's annexation of Syria's Golan Heights is 'null and void' and demands that Israel rescinds its decision forthwith.
Resolution 498: " ... 'calls' on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon".
Resolution 501: " ... 'calls' on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops".
Resolution 508:
Resolution 509: " ... 'demands' that Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and unconditionally from Lebanon".
Resolution 515: " ... 'demands' that Israel lift its siege of Beirut and allow food supplies to be brought in".
Resolution 517: " ... 'censures' Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions and demands that Israel withdraw its forces from Lebanon".
Resolution 518: " ... 'demands' that Israel cooperate fully with UN forces in Lebanon".
Resolution 520: " ... 'condemns' Israel's attack into West Beirut".
Resolution 573: " ... 'condemns' Israel 'vigorously' for bombing Tunisia in attack on PLO headquarters.
Resolution 587 " ... 'takes note' of previous calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon and urges all parties to withdraw".
Resolution 592: " ... 'strongly deplores' the killing of Palestinian students at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops".
Resolution 605: " ... 'strongly deplores' Israel's policies and practices denying the human rights of Palestinians.
Resolution 607: " ... 'calls' on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention.
Resolution 608: " ... 'deeply regrets' that Israel has defied the United Nations and deported Palestinian civilians".
Resolution 636: " ... 'deeply regrets' Israeli deportation of Palestinian civilians.
Resolution 641: " ... 'deplores' Israel's continuing deportation of Palestinians.
Resolution 672: " ... 'condemns' Israel for "violence against Palestinians" at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount.
Resolution 673: " ... 'deplores' Israel's refusal to cooperate with the United Nations.
Resolution 681: " ... 'deplores' Israel's resumption of the deportation of Palestinians.
Resolution 694: " ... 'deplores' Israel's deportation of Palestinians and calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return.
Resolution 726: " ... 'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of Palestinians.
Resolution 799: ". . . 'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of 413 Palestinians and calls for their immediate return.
Resolution 1559 (2 September 2004) called upon Lebanon to establish its sovereignty over all of its land and called upon Syria to end their military presence in Lebanon by withdrawing its forces and to cease intervening in internal Lebanese politics. The resolution also called on all Lebanese militias to disband.
Resolution 1583 (28 January 2005) calls on Lebanon to assert full control over its border with Israel. It also states that "the Council has recognized the Blue Line as valid for the purpose of confirming Israel's withdrawal pursuant to resolution 425.
Resolution 1648 (21 December 2005) renewed the mandate of United Nations Disengagement Observer Force until 30 June 2006.
Resolution 1701 (11 August 2006) called for the full cessation of hostilities between Israel and Hezbollah.

author by me toopublication date Thu Nov 22, 2007 15:44author address author phone Report this post to the editors

sceptic,

the rason that UN resolutions under chapter 7 which can result in enforcement action have never been made against ISrael is that its closest friden the USA has and continually vetoes any attempt to do this

Dear God havent you seen that even the US government has recently admitted that the arab population of the state of Israel is subject to institutionalised rascism and discrimination- a fact reported by the USA.

How can they be a democracy to some of their people and not all

author by Scepticpublication date Fri Nov 23, 2007 00:49author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Trying to have it both ways some people. Lauding UN resolutions against Israel yet bucking against the US veto without which other resolutions might exist which might prove your point. The thread began with the premise that extant resolutions against Israel are at odds with its being a democracy which is a complete fallacy. Fact is that none of the resolutions listed are relevant. 242 is not a resolution against Israel at all. It is a call for a compromise to all parties. Most of the others are past the post or have been implemented. And if you do go to a football match watch the bloody game. Don’t have some kind of ludicrous political epiphany that amounts to hackneyed and ill-informed anti Israeli prejudice that you then must share with the rest of us.

author by `mepublication date Fri Nov 23, 2007 09:36author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Sorry Sceptic but it's a bit rich to complain about "prejudice" yet ignore resolutions which don't suit you. You say "none of the resolutions listed are relevant.......most of the others are past the post or have been implemented". This is patently not true. The following UNSC resolutions are being blatantly currently violated by Israel:

Resolution 252: " ... 'declares invalid' Israel's acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital".
Resolution 271: " ... 'condemns' Israel's failure to obey UN resolutions on Jerusalem".
Resolution 298: " ... 'deplores' Israel's changing of the status of Jerusalem".
Resolution 446: 'determines' that Israeli settlements are a 'serious obstruction' to peace.
Resolution 452: " ... 'calls' on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories".
Resolution 465: " ... 'deplores' Israel's settlements and asks all member states not to assist Israel's settlements program".
Resolution 476: " ... 'reiterates' that Israel's claim to Jerusalem are 'null and void'".
Resolution 478: 'censures (Israel) in the strongest terms' for its claim to Jerusalem in its 'Basic Law'.
Resolution 497: decides that Israel's annexation of Syria's Golan Heights is 'null and void' and demands that Israel rescinds its decision forthwith.
Resolution 605: " ... 'strongly deplores' Israel's policies and practices denying the human rights of Palestinians.

ANd they're just the most obvious ones.....

author by Scepticpublication date Fri Nov 23, 2007 13:47author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Well there are mostly irrelevant and in any case they are not legally binding and none of them altering the fact that Israel is a democracy. What matters in the region is a compromise settlement between the various parties. A one sided censoring of this or that in the 1970s has little to do with it.

author by mepublication date Fri Nov 23, 2007 13:59author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Wow - you really missed the point of my post! YOU CANNOT CHOOSE WHICH RESOLUTIONS YOU WANT TO OBEY! It doesn't matter whether you think they are "irrelevant" - a common tactic of the pro-Israel side. These are UNSC resolutions and ARE legally binding. I also have to laugh at the idea that Israel is a democracy - sure, if you're Jewish; not quite so democratic if you're a Palestinian!

Rather ironically, the country with the most free and fair elections in the Middle East would seem to be Palestine (according to international observers). However, seeing as "we" didn't like the result, it was ignored!

author by Scepticpublication date Fri Nov 23, 2007 14:11author address author phone Report this post to the editors

They are not laws and they are not legally binding and one can in fact decide which ones to comply with (if any) in this particular and distinct context. The PA area has only in recent years had elections. It is not that the results were not recognized but that the PA is heavily dependent on generous and large scale aid from the US and the EU. Both have a fiduciary and moral duty to their taxpayers to ensure that funds are not given that will support Hamas terrorism. Hamas did not give adequate assurances in this regard. Democracy is not just about plebiscites.

author by Scepticpublication date Fri Nov 23, 2007 15:34author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The topic is dealt with in this piece by David Harris originally published in the Jerusalem Post.

Related Link: http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/middleeast/Ten_Ways_Israel_Is_Treated_Differently.asp
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