Public space R.I.P

by Reality Check Fri Sep 08, 2006 15:30

The building was developed by Dublin City Council, who are not a E250 million business.

by nerraw Fri Sep 08, 2006 15:40

Whatever about who is behind the building, it was a really nice park and contrasted very well with the surrounding buildings. Nicely positioned at the junction.

Shame, as Dame St is toxic enough at the best of times

Of course, there were problems with a few drunks etc.

by madam k Fri Sep 08, 2006 15:58

"P.J. Hegarty & Sons was founded in 1925 and is now firmly established as one of Ireland's leading and most progressive building and civil engineering companies with an annual turnover in excess of €250 million ."

by , Fri Sep 08, 2006 16:01

.

Built by Hegarty and sons

by time time time Fri Sep 08, 2006 16:27

New Dame St plaza to replace neglected park
Archiseek / Ireland / News / 2001 / November 29 2001: New Dame St plaza to replace neglected park
The Irish Times

An office building and plaza is to be built on the site of Dame Street's Millennium Garden, designed to reinvigorate the space between City Hall and the gates of Dublin Castle.

It was posted like 5 years ago!!!
The council own the office building, hegarty just built it under contract from the council, they do not own it

by time time time Fri Sep 08, 2006 16:56

i agree that the park, drunkards and all should have been left

green space in the city centre is becoming an extinct thing

I applaud your actions, perhaps trying to get the council to create more green spaces is the answer

by madam k Fri Sep 08, 2006 21:17

Never said they ,Hegarty and sons ,owned it . The point as i am sure you are aware is that companys such as these make vast profit from their developments .The design, function of end product questionable.

by Ciaron Sat Sep 09, 2006 02:01

Good action. Grat report. Many thanx.

I remember sitting in that park, one of the few places to take a break in the central city. What happened to those statues?

As I passed, I would often see a homeless friend, a gentle guy, feeding the pigeons there every day. Went passed one morning. There he was sitting in the alley next to it with a wall surrounding a deep hole that was once a park. He was still feeding the pigeons.

A testimony to the human spirit and the lack of city planning.
"Where will the children play?" Cat Stevens.
Where can the homeless rest? (obviously not in Stephens Green or on the boardwalk.
Where can stressed out city workers take a break without paying for it?

by Reality Check Sat Sep 09, 2006 13:51

If "I hope we dont lose anymore parks to greedy fat cats" doesn't imply ownership by the development company, then I don't know what does.
Or were you trying to say that Dublin City Council, elected by and funded by the people of Dublin, are "greedy fat cats"?
Every cent they earn from this development will be pumped back into the city, into the very parks that the City Council spend a fortune maintaining.
That little park was a magnet for litter, public drinking and other anti-social activities.
I don't even particularly like the new development but this nonsense of "blame the fat cat developers" is just factually inaccurate.
I would also query your bizarre style of writing, penning an article and then pretending your daughter has written it.

by Ciaron Sat Sep 09, 2006 14:30

...you obviously haven't met the daughter, pray you don't with that attitude. Very bright indeedy.

When did litter need a magnet in Ireland?, seems pretty abundant and decentralised in my experience.

That you see no value to cater for or engage the homeless and addicted betrays a class bias is typical of the state that makes these pro-business anti-human decisions. I repeat my previous question. where are they to go? Where is anyone who can't pay (for space in this CBD) able to pause and rest. where can you go to the jacks in this CBD?

It's not rocket science, check out London, check out Amsterdam. ask where all that Celtic Tiger cash went that didn't go into infrastructure. Check out the hospitals, gridlocked lack of public transport, your public hospitals.

It's a sad that RTS didn't prioritise defending this park. But they have limited resources and it seems like it was " a wake up one morning and it's a done deal kind of job".

by Reality Check Sat Sep 09, 2006 16:55

Tell me a child, even a teenager, wrote this: 'Never said they ,Hegarty and sons ,owned it . The point as i am sure you are aware is that companys such as these make vast profit from their developments .The design, function of end product questionable.'
Looking after homeless alcoholics is an entirely separate issue, which has to be tackled and is being.
Even you don't believe the solution to that problem is to actively install and encourage no-go areas in the middle of the city centre for people to get drunk, fight, and generally do damage to themselves.
My support for cleaning up a derelict park being equivalent to me seeing "no value to cater for or engage the homeless and addicted betrays a class bias" is typical of the logic-defying argument one would expect on Indymedia.

by Ciaron Sat Sep 09, 2006 22:27

"Never said....." quote sound slike the mother (who probably took the photo) advocating on behalf of her daughter who wrote the article (not even this kid is capable of being in two places at once!) Such advocacy is not uncommon when a parent feels ther child is being attacked by another adult.

"The poor tell us who we are,
The prophets tell us who we could be.
So we hide the poor
and kill the prophets!"
-Phil Berrigan

Unlike the cashed up (heavilly debted) crew that will be rampaging pass the homeless shelter where I'm working tonight, you are saying the homeless alcoholic should not be visible. Maybe you, like many others, would prefer they be warehoused outta sight outta mind in the piss poor, underfunded, overcrowded prison system that dovetails into a society whose state doesn't respect public space let alone human life.

"You can judge the quality of a society by the quality of its prisons"
-Doistesky (he she should know he did a lot of jail time and escaped from a couple. Quoted in "Con Air" by John Cusack whose father was a Post-WW2 college room mate of Phil Berigan for a number of years, but I digress)

Maybe you can judge the quality of a society by the lack of public space (see small Temple Bar Square increasingly colonised by the restaurants extending themselves), gridlock, public transport system, hospitals where the aged die sitting in chairs without trolley let alone bed space.

by redjade Sun Sep 10, 2006 12:39

Someday....
I plan on writing a piece for indy ie comparing and contrasting Dublin to Budapest on use of public and private space, and some possible reasons of why and how the two are so different.

Hungary is the 6th poorest country in the EU, yet its use of public and private space is completely different and far more 'progressive' than Dublin's.

Not that Budapest is a utopia in any sense - but there is quite simply too much space here for arts and culture and kids to frolic in. Every district in Budapest has a number of small green spaces and parks, most with playgrounds and benches and so on.

How it is afforded, i dont know - and its not always kept up very well. But there does seem to be a priority for such things.

If Dublin really really really wants this to be a priority, then it can happen. But I never did see much demand for pubic space in Dublin - just a lot of talk about it from politicians and NGOs and a grumbling public.

Budapest - Old and Crumbling but Rebuilding & very Pedestrian friendly

by Reality Check Sun Sep 10, 2006 14:15

As an urban area, Dublin has a huge amount of public spaces and parks, one of the highest in Europe.
Just off the top of my head, you have St Stephen's Green, Iveagh Gardens, Merrion Square, Wolfetone Square, Garden of Remembrance, Trinity College, Smithfield, Dublin Castle & Gardens, St Kevin's Park, St Patrick's Park, St Audeon's Gardens, Herbert Park, Phoenix Park, Blessington Basin, the banks of the two canals, the Boardwalk, Liberty Park, Mountjoy Square, Meeting House Square, Temple Bar Square and that's just in the city centre.
The two busiest streets in the city are also completely pedestrianised.
Reference the last post about Budapest, which was very interesting.
I think a large part of this is because of our prevailing weather conditions and Dublin's history as a medieval city. You often find in countrys, which have better climates than here that there are a lot of public squares and pocket parks - where people could spend the day sitting out or whatever.

Ciaron, I'm not going to respond to you as you have clearly played your trump card ... by saying you work in a homeless shelter.
How can I compete with you ... who works at the coalface?
How can anybody - never mind the fact you have no idea what I do - contend with that sort of calculated argument-concluding sentiment.
Just a word of advice though, try arguing about the point in future, which was whether redevelopment of a crappy little park in Dublin was the work of "greedy fat cats".

by Reveller Sun Sep 10, 2006 14:38

the pics are coming soon.
you see 'reality' the park belongs to them.
O Gara is not a fat cat-he is a weasel.

except it gives weasels a bad name.

whenwe think of future generations and not about our own post-millenial
existential angst, we might get somewhere.

by Stastically minded Sun Sep 10, 2006 16:51

As an urban area, Dublin has a huge amount of public spaces and parks, one of the highest in Europe.

Do you have any actual comparitive data for that? It would be interesting to see:
a) the total amount of space that is designated public
b) the space per capita
c) the number of spaces (to distinguish between a few large parks and multitudes of small ones)

by xrtser Mon Sep 11, 2006 08:40

I think the above has it slightly wrong with this one, as the park was always meant to temporary landscaped for the millenium to rectify the derelict space there that existed for too long before, It might just be be a good example of the council looking after disued areas for a while between development spurts.

by much more Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:43

rather than a park in the middle of the city disappearing, you should be more concerned with all those shoddy housing estates springing up everywhere. The workmanship is piss poor but as there is a severe housing shortage the planning just is not going in, loads of houses and no schools or recreational activities etc im sure you all know of at least 1 new housing estate like this--and wtf is with all the houses looking identical, tis fucking sick, and the cost, dont get me fucking started on the cost of these fucking prefabs

by Ciaron Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:56

Don't be trumped by people who work in the homeless sector of the charity industry. To many of them its just a well paid job where the State is the customer and the homeless person is a commodity. In the U.S. CW's call it poverty pimping. Many of them cross the street at the first sight of a homeless person that might know them. It's how folks engage the homeless when they are not getting paid for it that is the issue.

As I was rushing to the AAA meeting through Temple Bar yesterday a homeless guy I know drunk with mental health issues was taking a piss in the walkway beofre you hit Ha'penny brige. Yep he should get himself organised and piss in a more appropriate place but where could he use a toilet in that area on a Sunday afternoon?

What I'm also pissed off about, being from subtropical Brisbane, is the lack of awnings in Dublin. As a pedestrian you can move around Brisbane CBD dry in tropical storms and preserved fom the highest rate of skin cancer in the world, because shops have awnings. Brisbane generally has perfect weather, so perfect the weather is rarely a topic of conversation. Yet in Dublin the shops have no awnings and it rains a lot!

I think for the mental health of a city, you need even small green spaces like that former Dame St. park where people can pause and rest for a few minutes before throwing themselves back into the fray. I used that park a lot for thos purposes since my arrival in '02 and I would not accept that it was dangerous and dominated by the homeless. It was quite open and transparent and safe and a lot of city workers would use it on lunch break. I remember sitting there watching middleaged/dressed up Alice Cooper fans liining up for his gig at the Olympia, looked great...like the Night of the Living Dead!

by Madam k Thu Sep 14, 2006 03:27

"Every cent they earn from this development will be pumped back into the city, into the very parks that the City Council spend a fortune maintaining"

"Just off the top of my head, you have St Stephen's Green"

Photos from today. St Stephen's Green.

And they closed the playground for two months to facilitate this

and new screws too

oh dear that must have sent the council over budget

maintained to the highest standards

enough to put a smile on your face

by redjade Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:48

Great stuff Madam.

Here's a project idea.... [maybe this is what you are upto already, i dont know]

• lend out cheapo digicams to mothers all over dublin to take shots like these of where their kids play.

• Create individual indymedia thread/posts like this one of the photos.

• Then, organise on Indy an email campaign to relevant Councillors & TD's and Gov't big wigs sending them these indy post/thread links.

• Ask for their public reply about a) the current conditions of these playgrounds and b) what will be done about these conditions.

Perhaps also as a result of such a photo exercise will be an interesting map of Dublin and which constituencies have the best maintained playgrounds and which one are not.

Also: while these mothers are roaming neighborhoods with Digicams they should also have a bagful of Indymedia Propaganda explaining how to get to this site, and that they can add comments and their own stories and so on.

by Madam K Thu Sep 14, 2006 15:49

I think thats a great idea, St Pat`s park is also very shoddy. If you live as i do in Dublin 8 there is a lack of playground facilitys for kids .You have to go to the northside to find a decent one.
Thanks for the surgestion. I`ll do it.

by anarchaeologist Fri Sep 15, 2006 00:44

Tonight in Brickfields Park playground there were 4 dads (myself included) and 2 other dads with their partners.

Dads can do other stuff too like the dishes, the washing, the hoovering. Of course we also do the usual stuff like the driving, the bread winning, putting the bins out, diy...

Sometimes we even find the time to be part of Indymedia. Need I go on?

Maybe dads could help too?

Rant over.